PZ gets it right but Hemant misses the point.
5/12/2008 | 10:35 PM | Evolved Rationalist
Over at Friendly Atheist, Hemant thinks that this post by PZ was in bad taste. Before we take a look at Hemant's post and why I think he misses the point, let's take a look at PZ's original post.
Paul Jones has died. I didn't know him, or even know about him, until his obituary was sent to me, but it's an utterly tragic life story. He was an ordained Baptist minister — there's a waste of a life right there — and his death was ironic and futile. He died of a heart attack, just as he was about to pray with a member of his Upper Room Fellowship. His last word was "Jesus".This guy apparently used his life to worship and babble about his imaginary sky-daddy and corrupt his flock with the same deluded, ignorant, superstitious lies. Although it may be said that he was truly ignorant and actually believed in that garbage, his life was wasted the way we would say that someone who spends his lifetime chasing and talking to invisible green goblins has wasted his life. The fact that his last word was "Jesus" added a touch of irony to the story.
So far, I see nothing offensive there.
Someday I'm going to die, too, and I hope it is while doing something productive, and that I don't go out with the name of an imaginary being on my lips.Absolutely true. Who doesn't want to do something more productive with their life than mumbling to an imaginary friend like a schzoid and enticing more gullible people into a zombie cult?
And in particular, it would be nice if my obituary would say something about the good things in my life, rather than babbling on about dedication to a superstition.If you were to read the obituary, you would see that the whole page is full of Jesus nonsense. His wife and children are mentioned only at the very end, and the little reference to his business had more Jesus gobbledygook tacked on it.It's a shame. Jones might have been a wonderful fellow, but all we strangers know about him is that he was "committed to expanding God's kingdom" — that he had dedicated his life to a lie.
PZ isn't criticizing the deceased man, and as he clearly states, he might have been a 'wonderful fellow', but when you have an obituary that only talks about how much the deceased man loved an imaginary sky-daddy, all he will be remembered for (at least among the non-religious) is how deluded and ignorant he was and how his whole life was devoted to that ignorance.
From Hemant's post:
Yes, the man died. And yes, he died dedicating his life to something I strongly believe is a lie. That said, becoming a minister doesn’t mean you’re wasting your life. It depends what you do with that title.Really? Would we say the same thing about someone who is denies the HIV/AIDS connection and spreads his/her false beliefs on the public? Is the reason why Hemant is offended by PZ's post simply because PZ criticized a dead man's religion (which we all know should not be questioned at all cost [sarcasm])?
Are you using it so you have a soapbox to rail against gay marriage, women’s rights, etc? Or are you using it to help your community or inspire other people to do better, bigger things in life?Even if he did inspire people to do good things, we cannot deny that he was a Baptist minister, and for all the 'good things' he supposedly did in the name of his god, he did spread his false, silly, bigoted, stupid and plain wrong beliefs to his unsuspecting parishioners. Do we have to refrain from criticizing someone's false ideas just because he is dead? How long after his death are we supposed to wait? Five weeks? Five months? Five years? Fifty years?
Hemant misses PZ’s point that the obituary was so Jesus-saturated that the real individual behind the god-licking was buried, and this is a sad fact by itself. His wife and kids were barely mentioned, but his prayers to his imaginary sky-daddy were considered more important. That, I believe, is the true tragedy - when all the wonderful things an individual has done is forgotten in a god-coated pile, and all that is remembered of this one man is how he died serving an imaginary friend, and how he wasted his whole life living and teaching a lie.
Now, isn't that simply sad?
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You are just sucking up to PZ Myers.
Anonytroll,
If you knew anything at all about me, you would know that I don't suck up to anybody. Not PZ, not Dawkins, not the President of Iran. Nobody.
Now, why don't you jam a brick up your ass sideways?
You are very arrogant.
I am arrogant and proud of it.
This is my blog. If you can't take the heat, fuck off.
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anon: WTF?!?!?!?! You are quite insane, it seems.
I don't think Hemant was offended so much, but definitely disagreeing.
I agree with PZ. It does the man and his family a huge disservice to focus only on that one part of his life, but it also fits in with christian thinking, because what you do for / with god is the only thing that matters. That is their identity (for many).
This also accounts for why christians are so easily offended when someone attacks christianity. It's their whole identity. When someone attacks atheism, it's not that big of a deal, because that is only a small part of who I am.
And ER, haven't you sucked up to behe in the past?
Actually, while displaying a stupendous amount of ignorance and nitwittery, PZ is completely correct on this issue and none other than the Apostle Paul agrees with him! Paul put it this way:
“For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.” (1Cor 15:16-19 ESV)
In other words, if Jesus is not God in the flesh then we Christ-followers are to be pitied above all people!
Of course if he is God and did rise from the dead than PZ will find out the second that he dies. His nitwittery comes in his statement that Christianity IS a lie. This is a possibility, but neither he, nor anyone else can prove (100% without question) either that it is true or false. Absolute proof will only be discovered at the moment of one's death. So for PZ to claim otherwise proves his ignorance and demonstrates his unwillingness to adhere to the scientific standard of what absolute proof is.
Oh...and anonymous I can honestly say that the thought of shalanonymous "sucking up" to anyone is laughable! I'm just wondering what she was like as a little girl...
murf,
you're making a stupid mistake: equating the question of whether or not god exists with whether or not christianity is true or false.
Christianity is almost certainly a lie; it is so full of contradictions, absurdities, and other idiocy, that there is hardly any chance at all that it's true.
I won't say that it's absolutely false. But for all practical purposes, that's how I treat it. Just like Santa Claus, the easter bunny, and tooth fairy.
Saying that Christianity is false is just like claiming there is no santa claus. Are you going to say that it is "ignorance and demonstrates [his] unwillingness to adhere to the scientific standard of what absolute proof is" when someone claims that there is no santa cluas?
There is a difference between practicallity and what is strictly 'scientific philosophically' correct.
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Agreed Josh...which is why I have no problem with Hemant's post "something I strongly believe is a lie." That is much different than saying it IS a lie. One cannot prove either the existence of God or the truth of Christianity (absolutely) one way or the other until after one dies, when it is too late to do anything about it. Hemant states his belief correctly - demonstrating a little humility in the process. PZ states his belief incorrectly and only demonstrates his arrogance. He will, of course, reap the end of his choice whether he is correct or incorrect in his absolute (IS) statement. Both he and I would agree that this is a morally correct end for him.
Murf,
You missed my point. Would you call it "unwillingness to adhere to the standards of scientific absolute proof" when someone says 'unicorns do not exist' or 'there is no santa claus?'
Of course, the 'correct' thing to say is, 'unicorns do not appear to exist' or 'there does not appear to be a santa claus'
But it sounds pretty absurd to go to that level of pedantry. Just because people feel like there is some controversy about whether or not god exists, he remains at the same evidentiary level as unicorns. I propose that it's perfectly ok to treat god as such.
Why are you always hounded by trolls? I never get any trolls. Please inform me of your great ability to summon the pathetic.